Islam and the Forgiveness of Sins
I lifted this from James White's Blog.
The Associated Press is carrying the story of the death of over 300 pilgrims outside Mecca. Note the description of the hajj in this secular report:
Thousands of Muslim pilgrims rushing to complete a symbolic stoning ritual during the hajj tripped over luggage Thursday, causing a crush in which at least 345 people were killed, the Interior Ministry said.
The stampede occurred as tens of thousands of pilgrims headed toward al-Jamarat, a series of three pillars representing the devil that the faithful pelt with stones to purge themselves of sin.
Interior Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Mansour al-Turki said 345 people were killed. More than 1,000 people were injured, said Dr. Abbasi with the Saudi Red Crescent.
Footage from the scene showed lines of bodies laid out on stretchers on the pavement and covered with sheets. Ahmed Mustafa, an Egyptian pilgrim, said he saw bodies taken away in refrigerator trucks.
Pelting rocks with stones purges you of sin? And this from the religion that has spawned the modern generation of apologists who mock the cross? The article likewise notes that similar stampedes took place in 1990 (1,426 people dead) and 2004 (244 dead). Thousands dying in a mad rush to throw stones at the devil? The contrast again is tremendous: in Islam you throw stones at the devil; in Christianity the very Creator enters into His own creation and gives Himself as the sacrifice that brings forgiveness to all those who are vitally united to Him.
posted by Jeff at 1:01 PM
28 Comments:
I didn’t understand what you are claiming with “And this from the religion that has spawned the modern generation of apologists who mock the cross.” Can you explain?
And you must admit, while Islam may have some oddities, is Christianity any better? Drinking representative blood and eating representative flesh? A God that must commit suicide to appease its own rules? And then can’t communicate it clearly enough, resulting in more confusion? Heaven that can’t figure out electricity? And has walls to keep no one out? Small pun intended, but Christians are in the wrong sort of houses to be throwing stones, don’t you think?
I blame the Saudi government. After all the misshaps and tragedies of the past, one would have thought that they would have built in some safeguards for crowd control. They are the protectors of these pilgrimage sites, they should also protect the pilgrims.
No excuse for so many dead and injured.
First to Roman: You might be interested to find out that the Saudi Govt isn't likely to want to do anything about this for a few reasons.
1) Muslims have an ultra-ultra-strong concept of God's sovereignty. In the past when these things happen, prominent muslim scholars have been quoted to say that all those who died in the Haj would have died at that very moment anyway no matter where on Earth they had been. This because Allah had decided that was their moment to die.
2) I forget what it is, but there is some reward for dying in the Haj, or in Mecca.
3) To Muslims, life is cheap.
Now, I can see them taking action out of motivation to avoid negative publicity on the world scene. So for that reason there might be something done.
Now to dagoods. Welcome to my blog, you bring up some interesting questions.
First, that statement describes the standard behavior of muslim apologists. They often debate Christians and use ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies, and ridicule when doing so. That statement was referring to the fact that they ridicule the cross as being a foolish concept, while at the same time practicing things that could be argued to be more foolish.
Hence they are guilty of exactly what you pointed out.
As for drinking representative blood, that's nothing more than an observance to commemorate an event. I don't subscribe to the foolish idea that it's transformed in to real blood.
'A God that must commit suicide'? You purposely choose language to try to make the idea seem as foolish as possible. I don't see anything foolish in God requiring justice (you like the idea of justice don't you?) and obtaining this justice at His cost and not ours (you like the concept of mercy don't you?)
As for not clearly enough communicating; I'll take issue with that. I think the Bible is very clear and amounts to an excellent guide for mankind.
I'm not sure what you mean by the last few about electricity and walls. Would you elaborate?
Regards.
Jeff, thanks for clearing up the statement on apologetics. I didn’t refer to transfiguration. If I was into vampirism, but drank wine instead of blood, would that make it less odd? Not really. It is still representative of Jesus’ blood and flesh, right? “This is my body.” “This Cup is the New covenant in my blood” 1 Cor. 11:23-25. If any other religion drank wine (juice) and ate bread as representative of its founder’s blood and body, would you find that odd?
Voluntarily surrendering to death when you have no need to do so is suicide. You may not like the term, but it is accurate. “Just” means to follow a law. “Mercy” means to disregard what the law requires. What specific “law” (not the words “God’s law” that is not helpful) was Jesus following by dying? What specific law did God NOT impose by Jesus dying? See, the act cannot be both just and merciful, as those are opposites. Yes, I agree with Justice. I get to see the law, and see whether it is being followed. God doesn’t tell us what law, if any, is being followed, does he? That sacrifice of a god is sufficient atonement for those that accept it.
If the Bible is so clear, why did 30,000+ religions originate out of it? We get Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Science, and divisions within those broad categories. Why do literally millions (even billions) of differing individual interpretations come out of the Bible? How many people agree with your particular, specific interpretation right down to the jot and iota? We can’t even agree on what the originals say, let alone clarity.
As to heaven, quick points. Design a city. Would you include walls? No, because in our century such a concept is ridiculous. But in the First century, to design a city withOUT walls would be ludicrous. Does your city have a light problem? No, because you know electricity. In the First Century, having a light problem, you include transparent walls, and Christ providing light. Why didn’t God even have the foresight of an architect of our century?
dagoods, would you consider any situation where one person lays down his life for another person to be "suicide"? If so, do you think there's something wrong with that?
Yeah, what Sam said...
Scenario: I run out in front of a speeding truck to push my son out of the way. The truck kills me, but saves my son. Have I committed suicide? If you say 'yes' then I only ask why you use a pejorative term for an act so noble.
If 'no' then I will go on to point out that you don't understand the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.
Back to your first point, it's only symbolism to help to commemorate an event. If I knew you well enough I could point out things that you commemorate that use symbolism also. Then I'd call you to task as a hypocrite.
When it comes down to it, I think your objection is that since Christianity is a myth, it's just foolish to commemorate it at all. That would be a completely understandable position on your part...decrying commemorations or symbolism isn't.
As for various interpretations and fragmented religious sects...well you are committing a logical fallacy. The clearest of messages are prone to being mishandled by fallible people. It doesn't mean the message is unclear.
Case in point: generally speaking, are laws clearly written? Sure they use technical language that can be unapproachable but that's for the exact purpose of being clear and precise. Yet we have an entire profession built around arguing about what these laws really mean.
They must objectively mean something, or we as a society are immoral to impose penalties on people for violating them.
If you care to delve in to the details of Biblical interpretation I'd be glad to talk to you about the processes and principles used. It's much more of a science than you would suppose.
And on to the last one...I assume you are talking about the design of the celestial city as described in Revelations? And you see something in that design that is inconsistent with a divine designer, but is consistent with the imaginations of ancient humans?
ephphatha, Noble, yes, but still suicide. The difference being that as humans we are limited by natural laws. The God of Christianity is not.
Imagine you and me in a foxhole, and a grenade comes in. Jeff decides to save our lives by preventing the grenade fragments from tearing us to shreds. He is constrained by time and materials by which to do so. Due to the limited amount of time, and no other material, he throws his body on the grenade committing suicide. Noble, but suicide.
But what if Jeff was carrying material designed to contain bombs? And he decided to drop that material, and use his body instead. Would that be ludicrous? Or if Jeff knew that the grenade wouldn’t explode for 30 seconds; is it ridiculous to throw himself on it, and wait 28 seconds for it to explode?
However, this God-concept is not constrained by time, materials and natural laws. The idea is that there is a being that is powerful enough to create Time and the Universe, but the created screws it up enough that the ONLY way in which the Creator can straighten it out, with all the time and material in the inconceivable universe, is to kill Himself. Isn’t that a bit absurd?
And it gets worse….
You see, this God actually wrote the law that required Him to commit suicide to appease Himself. In our grenade example, Jeff did not create the laws of physics which state throwing an object in a certain direction with a certain velocity results in a grenade in a foxhole. He just deals with the facts as they are. Didn’t God write this Law? (We don’t know, of course, because we can’t read the law.)
This God could have just as easily stated that tossing a goose feather off of Mt. Carmel would forever absolve humankind. While throwing rocks at other rocks to absolve sins may seem absurd, Christianity’s idea of a God killing Himself to absolve sin may be equally as absurd to others.
I believe I understand your argument, and have seen it many times before.
I will say that it's a valid argument if and only if the premises are true.
Many of the premises are actually taught by Christianity: God is omnipotent and omniscient.
There are a couple of premises that I disagree with, and ask that you substantiate.
1) That God's rules of righteousness are arbitrary and could be different.
2) That another way of satisfying those rules is possible and preferrable to God.
Jeff, I hope my answer to ephphatha is sufficient for your truck scenario. You aren’t seriously claiming that God only had an instant to make a decision, with just limited speed and capabilities, and in that instant, choose to die on a cross, correct? It was pre-planned, true? I am uncertain as to how the term “suicide” is pejorative. This God wrote the law that required it, but didn’t have to. This God didn’t bother to think of something different. This God didn’t have to do it at all. (I will go out on a limb, here, and say that you feel it would have been “just” for God to send everyone to hell without the sacrifice.) Voluntarily submitting to an unnecessary death is not noble at all—it is suicide.
I agree Eucharist is symbolism. Still a bit gruesome, though, if you think about it. Eating representative human flesh and drinking representative human blood is not exactly standard fare, ya think? Even for a symbol. Remember, it was this blog that claimed throwing rocks at stones was absurd, but implied Christian acts are not. I’m just pointing out that others, using the [I]same[/I] parameters used, would find Christianity just as absurd.
In light of which, the comment “…I think your objection is that Christianity is a myth, its just foolish to commemorate it at all. That would be a completely understandable position on your part….decrying commemorations or symbolism isn’t” is very informative. Replace “Christianity” with “Islam” in that paragraph. Now re-read the blog. I think you just made my point very nicely, don’t you? If I was to be called to task as a hypocrite for commemorating things with symbolism….uh……wouldn’t the blog be as well?
As to your example of the messages and law—again, you make my point. I would wholeheartedly agree that when humans convey messages, other humans often misinterpret and misunderstand those messages. Is your argument is that the Bible, just like any other human manufacture, generates differing interpretations and understandings? Shouldn’t your point be that the Bible is [i]different;[/i] not [i]exactly like[/i] any other book?
Thank you, but no, I do not need a course in Biblical interpretation. As to heaven, the point was that heaven, as described, is always the best a human at that moment can conceive. For Islam, 72 white raisins. For Christians, a walled city with electrical problems. If the Bible was written today, “heaven” would have flying cars, and teleportation booths. The best a human in our century can conceive. Before one calls other’s beliefs absurd, one may want to make sure that the same investigation will not result in the same absurdity as to their own belief.
Jeff, you are free to disagree with any premise postulated. As we have no outside vectors by which we can confirm or deny what law God is or is not following, any claim to do so is pure speculation.
Simple question. Can God Lie? If He can’t he would say, “No.” If He can, he could lie and say, “No.” Same answer, two completely different Gods. As all we have are humans telling us what God said, how can we rationally come to any conclusion as to any law that God may or may not be following? It’s the Euthyphro Dilemma.
Jeff: 1) That God’s rules of righteousness are arbitrary and could be different.
Me: Slavery? Polygamy? Census-taking? Capital punishment for murder? Killing Jebusites and Hittites? Wearing Gold or pearls? Long hair on men, short hair on women? Lift hands in prayer? Women speak in church? Divorce?
Having no clue what God’s rules are at one particular moment as compared to the next, makes the question as to whether they could be different superfluous.
Jeff: 2) That another way of satisfying those rules is possible and preferable to God.
Me: Uhhh….what happened to omnipotence? If this is the ONLY way, then God is limited. Hence not omnipotent. If this is the preferable (but not only) way, we are back to suicide, right? Voluntary choice?
I, at least, give your God concept greater credit than you do. I presume it DOES have enough power to eliminate something it created (sin) without having to kill itself. Turning the question toward you, where is it written, that I might review, that God is bound by certain laws? And what are those laws? (Bible won’t help—that was written by humans. We know humans can lie, and we can’t tell just by God saying whether he can lie or not. Need something outside God to make that determination.)
Jeff, I enjoyed this very much, but I fear I could go on forever. We have apparently exhausted responses to the initial blog, and entered interesting tangents. We can pick this up elsewhere. Thanks.
That's a good probing comment. It's times like this that I regret the limitations of a blog in terms of carrying out a dialog.
Jeff, I hope my answer to ephphatha is sufficient for your truck scenario.
Yes.
You aren’t seriously claiming that God only had an instant to make a decision, with just limited speed and capabilities, and in that instant, choose to die on a cross, correct? It was pre-planned, true?
Correct. I don't even see how I could have been understood to be saying that.
I am uncertain as to how the term “suicide” is pejorative.
That's simple. Suicide is generally considered to be a pathology, although not universally (ie. Consider the spy who takes the cyanide, that was done to avoid great torture so wasn't due to a mental imbalance.)
This God wrote the law that required it, but didn’t have to. This God didn’t bother to think of something different. This God didn’t have to do it at all.
This is one of our disagreements. You must prove the assertion that God arbitrarily thought up the laws, and that He arbitrarily decreed the punishment.
(I will go out on a limb, here, and say that you feel it would have been “just” for God to send everyone to hell without the sacrifice.)
Your assumption here is right.
Voluntarily submitting to an unnecessary death is not noble at all—it is suicide.
How do you define unnecessary? In an absolute sense, in my scenario it wasn't necessary to push my son to safety at my own expense, but I would argue that it was necessary to fulfill my duty as a Father to my son given the circumstances.
I agree Eucharist is symbolism. Still a bit gruesome, though, if you think about it. Eating representative human flesh and drinking representative human blood is not exactly standard fare, ya think? Even for a symbol.
So gruesome is a litmus test you apply when deciding which religions might hold truth? I'm not sure I disagree that it's a bit gruesome, I just don't see why it disqualifies Christianity as potentially true.
Remember, it was this blog that claimed throwing rocks at stones was absurd, but implied Christian acts are not. I’m just pointing out that others, using the [I]same[/I] parameters used, would find Christianity just as absurd.
You point is well taken. Others would find Christianity just as absurd. Remember, this entry was borrowed from James White's blog, but by placing it here in the context I did I was of course saying that I approved of the post.
I am not sure what White meant to convey here. You see hypocrisy in that he called one religious observance absurd while he practices a religion that to you is equally absurd. I see him likely making the same point that you are, that the muslim apologists call the cross (the atonement) absurd (just as you are doing by the way) yet those very same people think their sins are forgiven by throwing rocks.
So perhaps you and Mr. White are united against the hypocrisy of the Muslims?
In light of which, the comment “…I think your objection is that Christianity is a myth, its just foolish to commemorate it at all. That would be a completely understandable position on your part….decrying commemorations or symbolism isn’t” is very informative. Replace “Christianity” with “Islam” in that paragraph. Now re-read the blog. I think you just made my point very nicely, don’t you? If I was to be called to task as a hypocrite for commemorating things with symbolism….uh……wouldn’t the blog be as well?
Sure...but it might matter just a little bit that they actually believe sins are commuted when they throw rocks...if they were simply throwing the rocks as a commemoration then I'd agree completely. No commemorations are foolish, not even Muslims observing the Haj...unless of course Islam is false then there is a bit of foolishness in believing it. But, given the belief, the observance itself isn't.
So perhaps we have less disagreement than you originally thought?
As to your example of the messages and law—again, you make my point. I would wholeheartedly agree that when humans convey messages, other humans often misinterpret and misunderstand those messages. Is your argument is that the Bible, just like any other human manufacture, generates differing interpretations and understandings? Shouldn’t your point be that the Bible is [i]different;[/i] not [i]exactly like[/i] any other book?
Yes, the Bible is different from any other book. However, it's the content and source that are unique not the medium (the medium of language). It is actually MORE prone to being misunderstood for reasons solely outside of itself. The reasons are in the minds of the people who perceive it. Being that it claims to be a holy book from God, people give it more attention and have more of a psychic drive to bend it to mean what they hope it will say.
But beyond the bias of those who read it, yes as a text it is like any other ancient text. There's no doctrine of supernatural intervention such that the minds of those who read it is illuminated to the point that we should expect no disagreements in the meaning.
Thank you, but no, I do not need a course in Biblical interpretation. As to heaven, the point was that heaven, as described, is always the best a human at that moment can conceive. For Islam, 72 white raisins. For Christians, a walled city with electrical problems. If the Bible was written today, “heaven” would have flying cars, and teleportation booths. The best a human in our century can conceive. Before one calls other’s beliefs absurd, one may want to make sure that the same investigation will not result in the same absurdity as to their own belief.
This is entirely rational given the premise that the religion is false. If there really was no divine communication and men wrote the book to promote the religion they conceived of then you are entirely right that it would be the best a human could conceive of.
Do you see absolutely no other possible reason that the book might describe heaven in a way that doesn't include air conditioning and electric lights?
But as for the last sentence I concur. It would be wrong of me to call a claim absurd unless I have enough evidence to do so (religious or not). Claiming the miracles of one religion are absurd, but not Christianity's for some reason would be hypocritical. That is unless I have enough evidence to claim so. The concept of miracles themselves should not be called absurd, unless you can somehow demonstrate the non-existence of the supernatural.
And we could go on to a discussion of miracles and those of Christianity vs. other religions but I don't want to bore you.
dagoods, I agree that this is interesting stuff worth continuing. Care to email me? I've got a link in my profile, please do.
Thank you, Jeff, that is kind. Unfortunately, if I engaged in e-mail conversations (I can be quite verbose) I would have no time to do anything but.
If you prefer a different format, I hang out a Xnforums.com. You can always find me there for further conversations.
Here's my two cents:
I would concede that the atonement is "suicide" only if we define that term to cover any case where one person gives up his life for the sake of another. And we understand that to be a noble thing, not an act of surrender and desperation. I think dagoods either wants to apply this word more broadly than is warranted (seems we're missing some categorical distinctions) or he ultimately believes that the crucifixion was a pointless act of desperation on God's part.
Let us first understand that thinking the atonement an odd or obscene idea is a subjective complaint based on one's own presuppositions about what God would or must do in the course of creation. However, it is not without appreciable human parallels, as in the idea of paying off someone else's debt or volunteering yourself for Nazi extermination in place of another.
Dagoods is right to understand this as a premeditated plan of God, and therefore one would expect it to be an ideal plan. I cannot blame dagoods for then judging its sensibility, but I can question his own sensibilities. Dagoods seems to think that God could have just poofed sin away with a snap of his "fingers," or He could have picked any simple means (say, throwing a penny in a well) as the means to satisfy our sin-debt. But I would then respond that those seem utterly pointless and ridiculous.
It seems far more reasonable to assume that if sin is a thing of any importance at all (it is in the creation, so it must have a point), then what purpose does it serve for God to simply shrug it off or wink at it? It must either be an inevitable product of creatures and freewill or it is an essential element of the story we are in. I would then expect there to be some drama surrounding this issue. And if God simply glossed over it I would have no more respect for Him than I would for a judicial system that set laws against theft and murder but let people off when they said "oops, sorry." Seems like if you set moral laws and you are perfect, then there would be some pretty tight tolerances in your expectations. However, we don't want justice — that would be bad news for us imperfect creatures — we want mercy. And if God is "good" and "love," then we would expect some sort of clemency. But He can't just let sinners go scot-free. So, what's a God to do, especially if we assume that "logical" is also one of His attributes?
In the Christian story and view, God covers all the bases: He permitted us freedom, He intends to have a perfect creation, He exercises thorough justice, He desires to extend mercy, He wishes us to have a robust understanding of Himself, He intends us to desire and respect Him, etc. This creation, the incarnation, and the atonement seem to be a perfect fit for the various logical problems that such a God might face. By giving me freewill I must logically be able to sin. By allowing me to sin I have a better understanding of righteousness and what God is not. By His justice I comprehend the gravity of sin. By the incarnation, I come to better know God and appreciate His willingness to get His hands dirty for my sake. By the atonement, I again appreciate the problem of sin, I find an escape from my impossible debt burden, and I admire that He was willing to satisfy His demands of justice at His own expense for my sake. He is so much more personal and participatory than the aloof God of Islam. If it is a fiction, I find it to at least be a brilliant work.
As to the Eucharist, the view being debated is more in line with the Roman Catholic view (transubstantiation), where they are in danger of losing site of the meaning in favor of the symbolic metaphorical connection. Thinking of it as simply the blood and body of Christ loses the content of Christianity.
Bread has deep biblical meaning, from the material provisions of God to the substance of God's words. Jesus represents the "word made flesh" and claims to be the source and means of eternal life — the "bread." We also take the bread to represent Jesus in his incarnation, the material body that He took on for our sake. The blood is a bit more directly analogous in that it represents the means of our salvation, i.e., the atonement. So, eating the bread and drinking the wine is then like assenting to, accepting, consuming, and being nourished by all the truths represented by these elements. And since Christ is the focal point of deity and history it only follows that our symbols will directly relate to him in whatever material sense they are able.
I find this all profound on a number of levels, and since humans are creatures of ritual, symbol, and tradition it only makes sense for God to give us something highly symbolic as a commemoration, and around which to hang our doctrines.
Regarding the many interpretations of Scripture, should we suppose that if the Bible is a holy book that everyone would then immediately believe it and have an infallible understanding of it? The Bible itself claims that men resist the truth and will twist the understanding of it. So, to see "different interpretations" is merely consistent with its own teachings. Of course, this does not make it true, but it means that diversity cannot then be used as a logical defeater either. Dagoods first needs to make his case that a truly divine book would result in a unanimous, infallible understanding of that book.
Given the incredible propensity of humans to exercise bias, agenda, and self-serving motivations I think it is safe to say that many people would have reason to take revelation as they prefer to see it, or not see it as revelation in the first place. Even so, I would say (as I have in the latest comment to "Jefe" on my blog), that there is very much agreement on our scriptures. Of those who seriously take the Bible as the inspired word of God, there is enough agreement on the essentials (deity of Christ, atonement, resurrection, etc.) to give those like dagoods a united front against which to train their guns.
On the nature of heaven as described in Revelations, dagoods' objection is based on the assumption that the narrative is depicting heaven in a literal sense. This is a very weak conclusion for two reasons. 1) Revelations is rife with symbolism, e.g., the "beast" does not represent a literal many-headed monstrosity. 2) The description itself includes symbols that are explained within the vision. For example, the 12 foundations and 12 gates represent the 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel respectively. Debating over how the light of Christ will make it through opaque walls kind of misses the point of the story.
Paul, fun “two cents” worth. Coupla comments (but limited, otherwise we will begin pages and pages of comments!)
Paul: It is far more reasonable to assume… Why? What makes your assumptions “more reasonable” than those of Muslims? If this was preaching to the choir, it was very nicely written, and I am sure plenty of Christians were nodding their heads, thinking it all comes together in a neat little package.
Try selling this to those that don’t hold to your assumptions, and it gets a little more tricky. For example, using your own apologetic as to how bad sin is, I could easily see a Muslim stating, “Merely saying a little prayer at one point absolving one of all their sins is like God shrugging it off or giving it a wink. I would have no respect for a Judicial system that allowed a murder to make a pre-written statement, and walk out of the court room free as a bird. Sin should be remembered as having consequences. It is reasonable for us to remember how awful sin is by yearly performing a duty that costs us something of ourselves by traveling a distance and performing a ritual of throwing rocks at rocks.”
Do you see how that works? If you start from the premise that your belief is reasonable, it is no surprise that every conclusion you derive from this belief is reasonable.
You can’t even state what “law” God was following, or where it came from, let alone its requirements as to what God must do or not do to atone for sin. For all you know, throwing a penny down a well IS a big deal to God. Just because it isn’t for you as a human, doesn’t mean it isn’t for God. He is mysterious, remember?
Look, to a human torture, death and separation are some of the worst scenarios to go through. If I was creating a god, and needed it to go through a bad scenario, isn’t it natural for me to use what I think as bad, as God thinking it was bad? So I use these three events to demonstrate a dramatic event God went through.
But wait….What is death to a Christian? “to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.” (2 Cor. 5:8) And what is separation? Since nothing can separate Christians from the love of God. Rom 8:39. And what is Torture? Aren’t Christians to be patient in suffering? James 10-11.
Do you see what happened? To a human Christian, death, separation and torture are nothing. Meaningless tripe. Throwing a penny into a well. But to a God, it is some big thing? Which is it? Are you saying that because it is significant to humans, it is significant to God? But God designed the world, true? Does He have the ability to instill in his creation that “throwing a penny down a well” is just as significant?
Please understand, I am not trying to be rude. But to a non-Christian, a God that kills Himself (better?) to fulfill a law that the Christian can’t even explain, can’t point out, and merely “assume” to be reasonable can be as absurd as throwing rocks at rocks.
You're right; we could go on and on. I have a feeling, from looking over your blog, that we'd have much to talk about and would be pleasantly challenged by the encounter. Let's not overstay our welcome on this topic though. To that end, let me try to stay minimalistic as well.
Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions here:
You said: "Merely saying a little prayer at one point absolving one of all their sins is like God shrugging it off or giving it a wink."
I'd have to agree with you if that were the meat of it (and unfortunately I know many Christians who treat it as though that were). However, the Christian claim is that we "repent" of our sin, which means to turn away from it, and that Christ becomes our Lord and master, having "bought us with a price." This means that Christianity is a life-long commitment that is supposed to turn your world upside-down. The "little prayer" is not the arbitrary token action which God has chosen for our redemption; it is merely an early symptom of being in a right relationship with God.
You said: "It is reasonable for us to remember how awful sin is by yearly performing a duty that costs us something of ourselves by traveling a distance and performing a ritual of throwing rocks at rocks."
Now let me be fair to the Muslims. This is actually part of the Hajj, which is a once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage (at least it is only required once). The "stoning of the devil" ritual is not the grounds of Muslim salvation, only a part of the many works required by them to insure the hope that Allah will be merciful on the day of judgment (there are no guarantees). For Islam, there is also no one magic act that God has ordained for salvation (except maybe exploding yourself in the company of unbelievers); it is also presumably a lifetime commitment. So, my complaint against Islam would not be that such a ritual seems unreasonable to me; my complaint against Islam is as comprehensive as the religion itself. So, I would have to agree that ridiculing this particular ritual is not a sufficient apologetic.
About my appeal to what seems "reasonable to assume":
You seem to be implying that God could be something entirely different that what we might understand or expect Him to be [pardon my patriarchal references, I am a Christian after all], and that He could have chosen something seemingly absurd as the means of our salvation. I would have to agree with you in theory that a deity could do anything He likes. However, if that deity has created us, has some interest in us, has expectations put upon us, and would hold us culpable for our rebellion or disobedience, then it seems to follow that He would invest us with minds that find "reasonable" those things which are consistent with His nature and intentions. If God is unreasonable, then I am either toast, hopelessly lost (because I am shackled by reason), or He probably won't hold me culpable for what I can't fathom anyway. So it seems safe, anyway, to lean on reason to some extent.
In any event, reason is all I have to go by because it is all I have been given. And since I am only me, I can only find reasonable what I find reasonable. (Of course, I may err in my conclusions at time, or maintain faulty data and assumptions, so I must take care.) Yet I have discovered that I am not in the minority in many conclusions; humanity seems to have much reason in common, which leads me to have some confidence in it and its possible place in the economy of the alleged deity.
Now, you may then tell me that some tribe in the Amazon finds it "reasonable" to ram tubers up their arses to appease their god, but I would then challenge them to give me a reasonable accounting of why I should buy their story. While you may personally not find the biblical story compelling, there is at least a common understanding (even among atheists) that it is one of the chief contenders in the domain of pedigree and plausibility; and that the worldview that it outlines is not so alien to reason.
I contend that reason is a valid tool in testing religions and worldview, and I think you do too, since, from what I've seen so far, it plays a central role in how you justify your own worldview. Personally, I find that atheism would require me to surrender too many of those things I find reasonable and natural to believe. I'm sure that you feel the same about Christianity, but most of my roadblocks to Christianity are more a matter of buying in to the incredible rather than denying foundational things about my mind and the cosmos, which atheism would require of me. It is in some ways like trying to convince me that I do not exist versus convincing me that the entire world was engineered by alien overlords.
Oops! I guess that wasn't too brief. Hopefully you'll take that as data and not so much as a challenge to respond.
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I gathered a couple of pillows and put them under my head and chest and raised my butt up.
It didn't take us long to get into position and he was soon sliding himself into me very slowly.
He was right, his ukraine top child was touching some places it missed when we did it with him lying on top of me.
When he had himself buried he began long slow thrusts while pulling me back to him with a hand on each of my hips.
A few minutes of that and he let one hand go and reached around and gently massaged a nipple.
Between his young model driving deep inside of me and his fingers on my breast I knew I was going to explode quickly. "Don, I'm going to preteen model
"Honey, see if you can hold back a bit and maybe we can puss pedo at the same time.""I'll try."
I felt him stroking the shaft of his lolita while the head was in me and moving it in and out of me ever so slowly.
I could see what he was doing.
He was getting himself aroused with jacking himself off with only part of his preteen bbs in me so he could try and free teen porn at the same time as I would.
I could feel the heat rising in me and I threw my ass back at him and drove his preteen sample video all the way in as I felt my orgasm come over me. "Don I'm coming."
I knew my mom was hot from the time I hit puberty. As soon as I began masturbating I was fantasizing about her. And later, in high school all the guys were always over to use my pool in the summer, hoping she would be home from work or be tanning on the weekends. Mom rarely disappointed too, sunning herself in a modest two-piece on the weekends while all my male friends gawked at her. If she ever knew she was the neighborhood hot mom she never gave any indication.
The older I got the more I thought about mom and every girl I dated was compared to her. I had a steady girlfriend through high school, but a careful eye would have seen that she was just a younger version of my mom and when I was with my girlfriend I often imagined she was my Mom. Not that she needed a younger version of herself. Mom was twenty-two when she had me, so when I was in high school she was in her thirties and looked like she could have been in her twenties. Mom had been a beauty queen in high school and the years hadnÒt diminished her looks one bit. Her long, sunny blond hair still fell past her shoulders, I used to play with it all the time when I was little, and her eyes still sparkled blue. And Mom has kept her amazing body. Seeing old pictures I think it got better after she had two kids. Her ass is rounder and plumper than when she was a teen and her breasts look heavier, theyÒre 36CÒs, I know from checking out her bras in the laundry, too. Sometimes thinking about Mom just makes my cock ach
e.
So anyway, IÒm twenty-two now, the same age that Mom was when she had me and sheÒs been my lover for over two years now. I found a way to make my fantasies come true when I was nineteen and away at college. They say that the meeting of all those different cultures and ideas is good. I know it was for me. Some of you may think what I did to get my Mom was wrong, but I canÒt say I have any regrets. HereÒs my story.
My freshman year at college I met this exchange student from India named free erotic sex stories. Saji was a great guy and we decided that we would be roommates during our sophomore year. When we became roommates we became the best of friends and I took him back home for a weekend. He stayed in the guest room and we had a great time. And I could tell by the way he looked at my Mom that free french very young 16 yrs old wanted her just as much as all my friends always had. But Saji was different. He actually said something. We were drinking in the dorm one night.
Dude, would you get pissed if I told you something? free galleri teen porn asked, taking a swig of his beer.
I donÒt think so. Try me. I replied.
Well, I have not been able to stop thinking about your mother. She is such a hottie.
I didnÒt know what to say, so I agreed.
She came to check on me the first night, she was standing in the doorway and I could see right through her nightgown. I felt really bad about thinking of your mother that way, but I couldnÒt help it.
I knew just the nightgown he was talking about. It always drove me crazy too. I tried to make him feel better, and maybe me too a little. If you think you feel bad, think how I feel. IÒm her son!
What? You think your mother is hot too? free gay anal was very surprised.
I had told him a little so I didnÒt see what there was to loose by telling him the rest. Dude, IÒve been fantasizing about my mom since I was a kid. How could I not? SheÒs like a goddess. free gay sex nodded his agreement. Sometimes I think I am doomed to never be completely happy with another girl.
So would you? You knowÅ I thought I knew what he meant, but didnÒt say anything. If you could, Saji continued, would you be with her?
IÅIÅuh, hell, of course I would. As weird as thatÒs supposed to be, I would in a heartbeat. Just thinking about it got me hard. But dude, there is no way she would ever even think about it. She loves my dad way too much. That part was true. My parents acted like they were as in love as the day they met. My dad worked hard and that meant being on business trips a few days every month, going to some regional office or another and every time he came back I would be able to hear my parents making love from down the hallway. My mother was so loud every time she came. Believe me, that had provided more fodder for fantasy than a hundred pornos could. And anyway, she would probably hate me, think I am some disgusting little freak if she knew how I feel.
There was a glint in SajiÒs eyes now. What if I could do something to help you? If I could make your fantasy come true, would you do it then?
I had no idea what he was talking about. It was all academic, so I said, Sure.
Then this is your lucky day, friend. free incest hentai went on to tell me how back in India his family was well-regarded herbalists and medicine men and that when his father came to this country he brought much of his knowledge with him. Saji had been studying with his father for as far back as he could remember his father had been mixing up elixirs that healed the family far faster than western medicine had to offer. But what Saji had to help me was not a medicine, he said. It was something his father would not teach him and Saji had only been able to learn by sneaking into his fatherÒs journals. What was it? Now that Saji had teased me I had to know what he was talking about. There was a mixture of powdered herbs that when combined acted like a psychotropic agent. What the hell was that, I asked him. Saji smiled and simply said, Mind control.
YouÒre out of your mind. What, am I going to hypnotize my mother into sleeping with me? I snorted.
No, itÒs nothing as clumsy as you would see in a movie, Saji told me. This, he said, worked over time. Several weeks to a month, depending on how strong-willed the subject was. Well, I knew Mom was pretty strong-willed. The subject did not turn into a zombie and best of all they had no idea what was happening. As far as the subject was concerned all of their thoughts and feelings were coming from them.
So why are you offering me this ancient family secret? I asked. There had to be a catch.
Because youÒre the only person here whoÒs truly been a friend to me. And, obviously I expect you to tell me every detail.
I donÒt know why I made the show of struggling over my decision, but I did. After a few minutes of silence I told Saji, Okay, what do I have to do?
When Saji went home for Spring Break he mixed up some of the herbs. Of course he wouldnÒt tell me what was in the mixture he brought back, but he assured me that it wouldnÒt do anything to hurt my mother. He handed me a big ziplock baggie of something that looked like green tea, but ground up more finely, and some written instructions, along with a vial of an amber oil. Saji said it had a very slight, bitter taste, but depending on what I slipped it into she would never notice. The oil was the activator. It was to be used after the herbs had softened Mom up. Lucky for me Mom has a cup of tea every evening after dinner, Saji said that should work perfectly because it would probably start kicking in when she was ready for bed.
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